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+--- Thread: Skill Based System. (/showthread.php?tid=6726)
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Re: Skill Based System. - Kakarat - 06-02-2009
Dustie Wrote:That would be fine, as long as you can respect down from 500 to 0 (and it doesn't take 3 months).
IMO, I think respecting is something that you would think of after you get your 'skill tree' implemented.
How do you gain skill points?
How long does it take for you to acquire a mastery skill?
Which factions require the mastery skill?
How many skill points can I have in total?
Are there bonus skill points for having a mastery skill?
Then,
What happens when I respec?
What is the cost of respec?
How many base points do I get back for respec?
Is there a penalty to respec?
When I respec and I do not like it, how do I go back to my old spec without too much trouble?(mastery skill)
Is respeccing a major decision, or is it easy to do?
Re: Skill Based System. - Snowreap - 06-02-2009
it would be workable if the game provided starting 'templates', (swordsman, mage, archer, etc.) that pre-allocated your starting points, allowing you to click 'go' and start playing immediately, but also allowing you to not click 'go' until after you've spent a little time rearranging your starting points the way you want them.
Asheron's Call did this with their starting templates. what Asheron's Call lacked was any way to unspend points (until they added it years later) which made it entirely possible to create a gimped character with no effective way to fix it.
-ken
Re: Skill Based System. - Veraphim - 06-02-2009
Dustie Wrote:That would be fine, as long as you can respect down from 500 to 0 (and it doesn't take 3 months).
Respec'ing down could be done at the same speed as Spec'ing up. UO kind of did it this way.
Using Slamz above Examples, say each of those skills could max at 250. A "MAX" character could have 750pts in total, of a possible 1500 for the 6 skills.
"KewlD00d"
Sword skill 250
Armor skill 250
Medic skill 0
Evocation skill 250
Conjuring skill 0
Alchemy skill 0
KewlD00d goes around in full platemail and a 2-handed sword and E-Bolts everyone with his evocation skill. Then along comes the monthly content patch which adds a meteor summoning spell to Conjuration which can flatten entire groups of ghey RPers having tea parties. In order to Train up Conjuring, KewlD00d can just "flag" Evocation as his De-Spec skill. Now, as he trains Conjuring, the skills flip. Every +1 he gets with Conjuring, -1 is instantly subtracted from Evocation.
In this way, you can always Despec something you don't want anymore without making re-specing instant like a trainer just refunding your pts and you allocating them again (ala WOW).
Re: Skill Based System. - Slamz - 06-02-2009
Yeah, unlearning is the thing I'm not sure how to do.
I don't entirely like the Planetside idea. I don't think it makes much sense for an RPG like we've been talking about.
(edit: Veraphim beat me to it.)
I think what I'd like to do is that you have, say, 10 "foci", or skills you are focusing on and thus increasing points in. If sword is one of your foci then as you swing your sword, you gain sword skill. Points will go into your foci either from your pool of unspent points OR from your unfocused skills.
So lets say you have all 1000 points invested but you want to learn Evocation. You must select Evocation as a focus and you must also choose at least one other skill to remove your focus from. So you de-select sword and select evocation. As you cast fireballs, you gain evocation at the expense of sword skills.
You still HAVE sword skill and if you pick up a sword you can still swing it with whatever skill you have left, but you won't gain any skill until you re-select it as a focus and then deselect something to feed it points.
Re: Skill Based System. - Vllad - 06-02-2009
Jakensama Wrote:The only problem is in most skill games I have seen the losers have already calculated the most efficient paths and there are lots of paths that just end up making you absolutely worthless.
Can it be done?
I could do it. Just because shitty games in the past didn't do well constructed skill based games doesn't mean it can't be done. It just hasn't been done yet.
I am pretty confident that with just two tiers I could create hundreds of equal set builds. That is as long as the equipment in the game is built around skills and not the other way around.
To address the respec issue I would use a timer like Planetside does.
For example lets say I am max level with the examples I have above. You go to Respec Guy1 and when you visit him click on all of the skills you want to drop. He ask you if you are sure. If you click yes then you get all of those points back. You can then spend those points on any skills you have learned in the past. Their is no need to re-accomplish any quest you have already completed. The skills are all in your inventory ready to be used.
So if I wanted to drop only 90 points of the 150 or all of the 150 points I receive them all back. Once I spend the points again if I immediately went back to the Respec Guy1 he would say sorry, You can't drop anymore points for 3 more hours (or what ever time seems appropriate for the design)
You just can't have people changing builds 4 times a hour. That is silly. Once a day is not. If you screw up how you spent your points well... do it better next time because you are stuck with it for at least some predetermined amount of time.
Vllad
Re: Skill Based System. - Ulfen - 06-02-2009
Vllad Wrote:You just can't have people changing builds 4 times a hour. That is silly. Once a day is not. If you screw up how you spent your points well... do it better next time because you are stuck with it for at least some predetermined amount of time.
I would allow you to change your build for free once per week, but you can change it any time for a VERY high cost. Perhaps the cost could diminish relative to how close you are to your week wait.
Re: Skill Based System. - Diggles - 06-02-2009
Slamz Wrote:Yeah, unlearning is the thing I'm not sure how to do.
I don't entirely like the Planetside idea. I don't think it makes much sense for an RPG like we've been talking about.
(edit: Veraphim beat me to it.)
I think what I'd like to do is that you have, say, 10 "foci", or skills you are focusing on and thus increasing points in. If sword is one of your foci then as you swing your sword, you gain sword skill. Points will go into your foci either from your pool of unspent points OR from your unfocused skills.
So lets say you have all 1000 points invested but you want to learn Evocation. You must select Evocation as a focus and you must also choose at least one other skill to remove your focus from. So you de-select sword and select evocation. As you cast fireballs, you gain evocation at the expense of sword skills.
You still HAVE sword skill and if you pick up a sword you can still swing it with whatever skill you have left, but you won't gain any skill until you re-select it as a focus and then deselect something to feed it points.
I like this way because it doesnt gimp you when you want to relearn. In SWG, as soon as you drop the master box, you lose access to a ton of your most power skills, while you are ranking up another tree.
Re: Skill Based System. - Jakensama - 06-02-2009
Yeah, if your going skills I guess Vllads way is the best, you unlock the skill originally through quests or whatever advancement system then you can respec into any skills up to whatever level you have unlocked them to.
Re: Skill Based System. - Vllad - 06-02-2009
Jakensama Wrote:Yeah, if your going skills I guess Vllads way is the best, you unlock the skill originally through quests or whatever advancement system then you can respec into any skills up to whatever level you have unlocked them to.
Exactly once you have learned something it sits in your profile. That doesn't mean you have any points spent on them but you never unlearn anything.
Everyone can learn to swing a sword and wear plate armor. You don't restrict anyone from anything. The only difference is you make people spend points to actually be good at it. PC's have the ability to just change regularly what they are good at.
You let the prereq's of the skills take over the rest.
The spells work slightly differently but it is pretty much the same thing.
Vllad
Re: Skill Based System. - Dustie - 06-02-2009
Here is my fear. Almost all of these ideas that we're talking about will necessitate a "high price of admission."
I don't want to sail around and kill NPC pirates for 3 months before I can go do "the real" fun part of the game which is Port Contention, Port Battles, Econ, etc.
It scares the heck out of me when you all use numbers like 1000 skill points in this etc.
Re: Skill Based System. - Vllad - 06-02-2009
Dustie Wrote:Here is my fear. Almost all of these ideas that we're talking about will necessitate a "high price of admission."
I don't want to sail around and kill NPC pirates for 3 months before I can go do "the real" fun part of the game which is Port Contention, Port Battles, Econ, etc.
It scares the heck out of me when you all use numbers like 1000 skill points in this etc.
What do you mean? What high price?
Vllad
Re: Skill Based System. - Diggles - 06-02-2009
thats why a good tutorial, mentor, and other systems would be important
there could always be noobie quests that you can only do once
fetch me 5lb of deer meat, iron ore, wood, scalps etc
Oblivion and other open eneded games prove that people do want these. Just have to give them encouragement and help when they are starting.
Re: Skill Based System. - Jakensama - 06-02-2009
Oblivion proved that people will put up with repetitive gameplay that lacks any interesting storyline even in single player games, provided they keep having the carrot to twink out their character with more and more powerful spells and daedric armor..
I think Oblivions popularity is much like WoW in that it recognizes the appeal of a game to a large audience where you are continually improving your character.
Re: Skill Based System. - Dustie - 06-02-2009
Vllad Wrote:Dustie Wrote:Here is my fear. Almost all of these ideas that we're talking about will necessitate a "high price of admission."
I don't want to sail around and kill NPC pirates for 3 months before I can go do "the real" fun part of the game which is Port Contention, Port Battles, Econ, etc.
It scares the heck out of me when you all use numbers like 1000 skill points in this etc.
What do you mean? What high price?
Vllad
The price of needing to kill 42,000 NPC ships for 3 months before you can start playing the fun part of the game.
Re: Skill Based System. - Vllad - 06-02-2009
Dustie Wrote:The price of needing to kill 42,000 NPC ships for 3 months before you can start playing the fun part of the game.
Oh ok.
Well for starters forget the numbers we can adjust that. For example just because at max level you have 1000 skill points doesn't mean we don't give people 500 to start with.
For that matter what difference does it make if the max is 150 skill points or 500?
Right from the start our primary goal with a skill system is accomplish the following.
A person can log in and with in minutes be contributing to the pvp enviorment and know he is contributing.
Their is still a grind, all we have done is take the repetitive nature out of it. All that matters is if a level 1 PC can kill a max level PC that is really all you have to do. At that point the Grind will remain passive no matter how difficult you make it. I guarentee you that even if it took 6 months to reach maximum level if a level 1 can effectively kill a max level character people will not mind the grind.
Lets take my example I gave of a skill system that has a max of 150 points. We can give a level 1 newb 30 points right out the gate. This is enough to take a combination of 2 level 5 tiered skills or any combination of skills with only minimal levels.
Right at the start a PC can be almost as good as any PC. As he levels he gains additional points for diversity sakes not for effectiveness. You can't eliminate grinding altogether. With out character developement people will grow bored no matter what game you have.
Plus with a skill based system just because you reach max level doesn't mean you will get access to all skills. You have quest to do, places to visit and people to see.
While the grind may be irratating from a player perspective if you actually build this game you need the grind. Other wise players won't stay around to play it for very long.
Again my disclaimer is as long as you keep gear subjective to skills and not the other way around you will be fine.
Vllad
Re: Skill Based System. - Dustie - 06-02-2009
Quote:diversity sakes not for effectiveness
If we can do that, that's fine. Isn't that effectively the Planetside system?
Re: Skill Based System. - Vllad - 06-02-2009
Dustie Wrote:Quote:diversity sakes not for effectiveness
If we can do that, that's fine. Isn't that effectively the Planetside system?
Not really.
Their isn't enough skills in Planetside and they aren't layered so you can get true specialization. The short fall of Planetside is in the end its all about shooting a bullet. When you really only have one kind of damage (with exception of gas gernades) you can't build any kind of depth. Their are only so many ways to shoot a bullet and kill someone.
Vllad
Re: Skill Based System. - Slamz - 06-02-2009
Also, there should be no "grind" in the typical sense of that word.
You roll a new character and 5 minutes later you're killing goblins. You're not killing them to raise your sword skill (although you'll gain sword skill) nor are you killing them for loot (although they'll probably have some). You're killing the goblins to help the orcs expand. When you kill the goblin wood choppers, that's less actual wood that the goblin camp will collect. You take their heads back to the orcs and they'll like you more. Maybe they'll even go set up a wood camp on the spot you just cleaned out and give you a cut of the profits.
I think that seeing real-world results for your efforts will go a long way towards taking the bite out of the grind. At least, it would for me. I like to feel like I'm playing a complete game and not just Progress Quest with better graphics. It's why I can play UFO:Afterlight for 5 hours straight but I log out of Warhammer after 30 minutes.
Re: Skill Based System. - Alio - 06-04-2009
"Nor killing them for loot...."
perfect. Unless the orcs spend money to buy their armor and materials, you shouldnt be able to sell the armor or materials for money, but thats economy and for another topic. I think you're better off focusing on skills and skill advancement, screw equipment.
Ive played WW2OL for 7 years, and from day one I was useful in PVP and advancing the war (storyline). Simply because the equipment I use, is the same that the veterans use. The skill of pvp comes from my PERSONAL experience. A guy who's played years (level 60) will beat a guy who started today (level 1), even though they're in balanced equipment, because the veteran has learned how to use it and where to shoot.... Experience not in points but in ACTUAL experience.
If I start today with a level 60 character, I shouldnt be able to beat a level 20 simply because my character has ubersword +20..... I might be "playing" a level 60 experience'd character, but I am in fact, a level 1.
Skill trees for diversity, as Vllad is getting after, is the greatest idea, as long as you're not creating an uber-character simply because you've played longer/ have more skill points ...... Let people customize their routes, characters, with certain skills that are useful, but the real advantage of having played a while is knowing how the factions work, where you are within the factions, and how to push/pull a faction to your whims.