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+--- Thread: new computer (/showthread.php?tid=6678)
- Zeel - 05-28-2009
After seeing Ken's G13 yesterday I'm a lot less happy with my Nostromo n52. The G13 looks, feels, and acts like a much more solid solution and the price is pretty damn close.
The only think I was worried about was my big hand fitting comfortably, and it was great.
Anyone looking to buy a used n52???
- Diggles - 05-28-2009
you people and your stupid game pads. Do you guys actually use them to macro or even program them at all? You realize the left side of your keyboard has MORE combinations of keys than the gamepads?
- Zeel - 05-28-2009
If number of keys and ability to macro were the only deciding factors for getting a game pad then I might be inclined to agree with you.
For me it is much more about key positioning and the analog stick / gamepad for the thumb.
- Snowreap - 05-28-2009
having gotten (mostly) used to using my left thumb for movement (thus freeing the rest of the fingers on my left hand for action buttons), I looked a little deeper at the G13's LUA scripting engine, and it's basically functional but it won't handle long-running tasks. or rather, it will handle long-running tasks, but only one at a time because each button-down or button-up action is an 'event', and you can only have 1 event handler running at a time.
so if I script G1 to press 1, wait 10 seconds, then press 2, and I script G2 to press 3, wait 10 seconds, then press 4, I get the following result if I press G1, wait 5 seconds and press G2:
1 (10 seconds) 2 3 (10 seconds) 4
what I wanted was:
1 (5 seconds) 3 (5 seconds) 2 (5 seconds) 4.
fortunately, something basic like this can be done using macros (which can run concurrently, unlike LUA event handlers), so there's no need to get into LUA at all.
but if you want finer control over the buttons than the macros can provide (for example, you want to use certain buttons as 'shift' buttons to change the functions of other buttons) then LUA scripting is the answer.
-ken
- Diggles - 05-28-2009
Zeel Wrote:If number of keys and ability to macro were the only deciding factors for getting a game pad then I might be inclined to agree with you.
For me it is much more about key positioning and the analog stick / gamepad for the thumb.
get a better keyboard
http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=043
- Moristans - 05-28-2009
Do you still use WASD for movement Diggles?
- Snowreap - 05-28-2009
Diggles Wrote:fixed.Zeel Wrote:If number of keys and ability to macro were the only deciding factors for getting a game pad then I might be inclined to agree with you.
For me it is much more about key positioning and the analog stick / gamepad for the thumb.
get a better keyboard
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/gaming/pc_gaming/mice_keyboards/devices/4956&cl=us,en
-ken
- Hoofhurr - 05-28-2009
I still use wasd for movement. I'm actually not a bad player. I do well in most situations. Not sure how long that will hold up. I just rarely justify spending near 100 for a video game. Unless it's actually a video game. Granted I'm out of practice lately but I usually do better than average.
- Diggles - 05-28-2009
Moristans Wrote:Do you still use WASD for movement Diggles?
No, I use setup of the first Quake World CHampion, Thresh
A/F Strafe (for larger hands)
Z Backwards
Mouse2 is always forward
- Slamz - 05-29-2009
Nostromo type pads are all about the thumbpad for movement.
No keyboard setup lets you control forward, backward and strafe using just 1 finger. It makes it much easier in an MMORPG to be running forward, sideways, adjusting view with the mouse and still have 4 fingers completely free to hit hotkeys.
With Diggles' setup, for example, how can you strafe-turn (F + mouse movement) and then use your hotkeys (especially if you may need to quickly alternate between your two strafe keys)? You're fairly limited in what you can reach. That's fine for Quake but not so hot for an MMORPG where you have 15 hotkeys you might like to press.
- Zeel - 05-29-2009
Slamz Wrote:Nostromo type pads are all about the thumbpad for movement.
No keyboard setup lets you control forward, backward and strafe using just 1 finger. It makes it much easier in an MMORPG to be running forward, sideways, adjusting view with the mouse and still have 4 fingers completely free to hit hotkeys.
With Diggles' setup, for example, how can you strafe-turn (F + mouse movement) and then use your hotkeys (especially if you may need to quickly alternate between your two strafe keys)? You're fairly limited in what you can reach. That's fine for Quake but not so hot for an MMORPG where you have 15 hotkeys you might like to press.
What he said.
- Diggles - 05-29-2009
Slamz Wrote:Nostromo type pads are all about the thumbpad for movement.
No keyboard setup lets you control forward, backward and strafe using just 1 finger. It makes it much easier in an MMORPG to be running forward, sideways, adjusting view with the mouse and still have 4 fingers completely free to hit hotkeys.
With Diggles' setup, for example, how can you strafe-turn (F + mouse movement) and then use your hotkeys (especially if you may need to quickly alternate between your two strafe keys)? You're fairly limited in what you can reach. That's fine for Quake but not so hot for an MMORPG where you have 15 hotkeys you might like to press.
Becuase any hotkey on the left side of the keyboard I have to use with my left pointer finger is either a tap function, non combat hotkey or something that you cannot use while moving
IE...Fkeys F6-f12, #6-0
channeled spells, ressurect, teleport, summon pet, etc, T for type, R for reload
- Moristans - 05-29-2009
So where/how do you control all the crap you have to do in a MMO while moving?
I ran out of buttons on my Nostromo so I ended up mapping more to 6 buttons on my Razer mouse.
- Dragonzfire - 05-29-2009
Snowreap Wrote:we just acquired a pair of Logitech G13 Advanced Gameboards. these are like Nostromo gamepads, except with more buttons and an LCD display.
mine is working just fine in Warhammer (my machine is running 64-bit XP) and I'm using the display to show Ventrilo information (since the Ventrilo in-game overlay doesn't seem to work on my machine). I haven't tried using my wife's yet, although I read that I might have a problem with the gamepad not recognizing the game due to a UAC issue. we'll see. edit: sure enough, it didn't work with Warhammer on Vista. but disabling UAC eliminated the problem.
I have all the buttons bound to simple keypresses (row 1: shift-1 through shift-7; row 2: 1 through 7; row 3: tab, f1 through f4; row 4: v, m, c), but you can also bind macros which allow finer control. for example, I can set up a button in 'toggle' mode, where it begins running a macro when you press it, and the macro repeats until you press the button a second time (pressing the button a second time doesn't immediately stop the macro, it runs to the end then stops). macros allow fine control of key-down and key-up events, including customizable delays (so you can set up one macro to press and release a key right away, and another macro to press the same key but hold it down for 1200ms before releasing it). also, running macros aren't interrupted if you press other buttons while they're running. so you could reasonably set up a fire-and-forget macro to twist 3 auras, and it will just run by itself until you hit the button again to stop it. or, you could set up a macro that always swings a ram at 100% power (if you're the leader, anyway).
there are also more advanced things that can be done via LUA scripting, but I haven't looked into any of that.
-ken
SHHH your ruining my secret twists etc using the G15
I still play FPS/RTS/MMO and I am stuck on my key config. I havent used my N52 in a long time, but might add this GP to my kit if I can put my hands on one first to test the feel.
E/D forward/back
S/F turn Left/Right
W/R Strafe Left/R
Space Jump
V "use"
A duck
The rest of the surrounding keys are game dependent specific movements
99%of the time I am using the mouse to turn and target due to FPS twitch sniping(Back in my CS/UT days)
In MMO I use the movement keys abouve to move and the mouse is all about targeting.
- Snowreap - 05-29-2009
the big benefit of using your thumb to move (which is the whole point of using a gamepad I think, because otherwise it's just a keyboard with fewer keys), is with strafing.
regardless of whether you're strafing left or strafing right, typically you will have 1 finger busy holding that key down for the duration. the actions you then have available to you during that time are limited to those keys your other fingers can reach, without taking your finger off the strafe button.
and *specifically* which actions you have available at any particular time, depend on whether you're strafing left or strafing right. if you're strafing left, then you might find that actions bound to '2' or '3' may be hard to reach. but if you're strafing right '2' and '3' are easy, but '5' or '6' become hard (never mind shift-6 -- go ahead, hold down your strafe-right key and then try to press shift-6).
for me, this led to an interesting effect on my shadow warrior -- when kiting I'd always circle-strafe clockwise (thus freeing my index finger for my bow-attack keys, which tended to be towards the right), but when circling behind a target in melee I'd always circle counter-clockwise (thus freeing my ring finger for my sword-attack keys, which tended to be towards the left).
I didn't like this restriction; I wanted to be able to strafe in either direction, at will, depending on terrain and player positioning.
so I decided that I needed a left-hand controller, so that I could more effectively separate movement keys from ability keys.
by the way, I've decided at this point that 22 ability keys isn't quite enough, so I've reprogrammed the G22 key to act as a shift key -- as long as I hold that key down, the 'M2' keymap is active, otherwise the 'M1' keymap is used (usually the M1/M2/M3 keymaps are selected using the dedicated M keys at the top, but for my purposes a shift key is more useful). the 'M2' keymap can then be configured with a variety of abilities that I don't typically need to use while moving (so I can use my thumb to hold G22, and have all fingers available for whichever other key G1-G21 I want to press).
-ken
- Snowreap - 05-29-2009
thinking more about reprogramming G13 gamepad keys as 'shift' keys, it's also possible, I suppose, to reprogram a key as a 'toggle modifier' key. so, just like a shift key changes any other key to its shifted version, a 'toggle' key would change any other key to its toggled version (a toggled key stays pressed even after you release it -- you press it a second time to un-toggle it).
so you could continue to have a WASD-style layout for movement (leaving the thumbstick available for other non-movement purposes, such as camera control or target selection), but also define a 'toggle' key that works like a shift key. so for example, if G4 were bound to 'W', then pressing G4 alone would move you forward (and releasing G4 would stop you). but if you held down G22 while pressing G4, then that 'toggles' G4 and leaves it in the held state even if you let go of the keys. pressing G4 again (or pressing G22+G4 again) would unlock it.
this could give you all the benefits of the thumbstick (easy access to all action buttons with all fingers) without giving up the WASD layout you're used to.
the Lua scripting support for the G13 makes this kind of customization fairly straightforward to do.
-ken
- Flab - 05-29-2009
Im gonna get an Apple.
- grizzle - 05-29-2009
Golden Delicious?
- Ulfen - 05-29-2009
Granny smith.
- Zouji - 05-30-2009
Snowreap Wrote:Diggles Wrote:fixed.Zeel Wrote:If number of keys and ability to macro were the only deciding factors for getting a game pad then I might be inclined to agree with you.
For me it is much more about key positioning and the analog stick / gamepad for the thumb.
get a better keyboard
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/gaming/pc_gaming/mice_keyboards/devices/4956&cl=us,en
-ken
Ahem just get a damned trackball. I've been using the same type of mouse for 12 years.
Logitech TrackMan Marble
Model: T-CH11
The only disadvantage is it doesn't have a mousewheel but then again I've never seen a Trackball that had a mouse wheel AND a middle button. Clicking down on the damn mouse wheel does not count as a middle button since it might move the wheel!
- Hoofhurr - 05-30-2009
Pink Lady is my apple of the moment.
Also, trackballs for life was raised on them and I get annoyed having to use regular meeces at work. Being able to rotate 360 with a flick of your finger is priceless.
- Diggles - 05-30-2009
Hoofhurr Wrote:Pink Lady is my apple of the moment.
Also, trackballs for life was raised on them and I get annoyed having to use regular meeces at work. Being able to rotate 360 with a flick of your finger is priceless.
Or just raise your mouse sensitivity above 'caveman' setting! ohhhhh
- Hoofhurr - 05-30-2009
Hah. I always have sensitivity up high. The control from two fingers is better than the wrist. This you learn from having a girlfriend.
OHHHH! :lol:
- Diggles - 05-30-2009
Hoofhurr Wrote:Hah. I always have sensitivity up high. The control from two fingers is better than the wrist. This you learn from having a girlfriend.
OHHHH! :lol:
Curious, your girlfriend usually requests 4 fingers
- Hoofhurr - 05-30-2009
And leaves disappointed because your wrist is worn out.